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[Grumpwurst]

You are not a guaranteed customer once you buy into DVC.  You can sell DVC, default on your loan (if you have one), pay your dues but not use DVC, pay your dues and go elsewhere.  The initial up front money Disney receives is great for it, but it also wants those members to spend money in the parks.  Unsatisfied DVC members aren't going to spend as much money.

See Roger's comment.  Disney views DVC-ers as guaranteed and locked in, just like AP-holders.  As a company they don't really want to even acknowledge companies like DVC-By-Resale even exist...at least not publically

This is the first I've heard of those studies.  I don't exactly think that's an analogous comparison.  After 9/11, people stopped traveling because of a fear of traveling.  Disney didn't cause that.  Disney, however, directly impacts the quality of its own parks.  DVC members may continue to come in both instances, but I think in the latter circumstance, they (some, at least), will 'voice' their displeasure by spending less.

I didn't mean to infer that Disney caused the slowdown after the terrorist attacks.  Fear was a motivator to not come (we didn't let it impact us one bit).  But they did a study on who was still coming to the parks and that study showed it was Annual Passholders and members of the DVC by an overwhelming majority.  It's that data that sparked the massive DVC building and membership drive.  It's why calling it Disney's Best Kept Secret became such a joke.  Prior to the attacks, it was a best kept secret, afterwards with all the marketing they couldn't say that anymore.

I am not saying DVC or AP members matter more than first time guests.  Doing so would be insane.  Obviously first timers matter much, much more.  However, both groups matter.  Disney cannot simply forsake one demographic and rely on another, because doing so will cause it to slip.  Even a slight slip matters from a business perspective.

In my line of work with legal IT consultancy, first time customers are good, but long time loyal clients are what keep you afloat during the trying times.  But lately, we've noticed a shift with our competitors where they are going for the big-time first time clients and could care less if they stick with you when the project is over.  Why?  Because the first time client is big money, the repeated business aftwards is chump change in comparison.

But, that chump change keeps you going when you swing and miss over and over again on getting those big-time clients who are new to the company.

Disney is now focused on that big money of the rack rate customer.  They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

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[Tim]

The lights are actually sitting off the side of the road on backstage lane, at least as of yesterday.  As someone else said, don't believe the hype until you see it yourself. 

[Tim]

Disney is now focused on that big money of the rack rate customer.  They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

hence the fact that Mickey and Minnie are getting booted in favor of more princesses and fairies.  He who sells the most merchandise wins.   

[WDWFigment]

See Roger's comment.  Disney views DVC-ers as guaranteed and locked in, just like AP-holders.  As a company they don't really want to even acknowledge companies like DVC-By-Resale even exist...at least not publically


I didn't mean to infer that Disney caused the slowdown after the terrorist attacks.  Fear was a motivator to not come (we didn't let it impact us one bit).  But they did a study on who was still coming to the parks and that study showed it was Annual Passholders and members of the DVC by an overwhelming majority.  It's that data that sparked the massive DVC building and membership drive.  It's why calling it Disney's Best Kept Secret became such a joke.  Prior to the attacks, it was a best kept secret, afterwards with all the marketing they couldn't say that anymore.

In my line of work with legal IT consultancy, first time customers are good, but long time loyal clients are what keep you afloat during the trying times.  But lately, we've noticed a shift with our competitors where they are going for the big-time first time clients and could care less if they stick with you when the project is over.  Why?  Because the first time client is big money, the repeated business aftwards is chump change in comparison.

But, that chump change keeps you going when you swing and miss over and over again on getting those big-time clients who are new to the company.

Disney is now focused on that big money of the rack rate customer.  They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

Since I assume neither of us actually knows the company's rationales for acting, or business plan, all we can do is speculate.  I think I've set forth reasons that Disney should take into account the interests of DVC/AP holders when making business decisions when said interests are not in conflict with first time guests.  I think we are both saying (to an extent) the same thing in that guests other than first timers should matter.  If those guests don't matter to Disney, the company is erring.  As you put it, both types of customers matter.  It was more justifiable back when the economy was hot (especially since space in the parks and resorts is finite) to go for the big bucks, but now that things aren't so hot, the flaws with that plan are becoming clear.

You didn't imply that 9/11 was Disney's fault.  I was just distinguishing your comparison on that basis.

[Roger]

  They have long lost sight that those who travel at least once a year to the parks are worth something

I think they want to change somewhat however.  D23 is an example.

Except to paraphrase Grand Moff Tarkin, they're taking a huge risk, and here's why:  They didn't market D23 to anyone but the fanatical fans, and...by having very limited admission events, without a system where you only get to go to 1 every xx months, you'll risk alienating the same fans you want to attract. 

Example:  I went through my own up and down Disney time.  Between 1989 and 2004 I wasn't that interested in the parks.  Went in 94, and then in summer 98 it came back in full force, through 2000.  That year, while a Disney wedding is fun, the honeymoon wasn't that great (CM issues, major room issues), and earlier in the year was the great POTC event of '00.  While the event and special ride through was great, the merchandising was horrible.  Stayed on Main Street til 2 am to get the merchandise, still had hours long line; some people had to stay past 5 am to get theirs (and note the park reopened at 8 am).  Went back during the afternoon (same day) and our merchandise STILL wasn't ready....in an effort to stymie the eBay crowd, they ended up alienating a lot of fans. 

Then in Feb 2001 DCA opened up and "you'll need to upgrade your AP to visit...at twice the price".  I only went to DCA once during that time on a press ticket.  But at least I got to experience Superstar Limo and eat at the Soap Opera Bistro.

So from 2001 to 2004,not much magic for me (we went a few times), until mid 2004 when my oldest was old enough to really enjoy the park[1] did the "magic" return for me.  (not to mention visiting just to play Millionaire before it left!)

I've seen the park[2] decline and now begin to get back to where they should be...  unfortunately I see WDW doing the same things DL did about 10 years ago.

WDW didn't want to spend the money on Star Tours and Ariel's Undersea Adventures.  Those decisions were made for them by TDB.  It's like I'm watching Pressler's Regime again, but in slower motion.  Where short term savings were made at the expense of the guest experience.....

1.	He first visited when he was 7 days old
2.	Walt's, not Roy's

[Roger]

If those guests don't matter to Disney, the company is erring. 

I don't think they think like that, but in general APs (and I'm sure they either think or know that DVC members) are less likely to spend as much money during a trip as once in a few years or longer guests.  If you're in the parks more often than not, you won't be as tempted to spend money on items when you'll know you'll be back again.....

This is more problematic in California, as APs have no problem leaving the park and walking across the street to go to Denny's to eat.  Out of towners probably don't want to leave the park because it's the experience they are after....

As you put it, both types of customers matter.  It was more justifiable back when the economy was hot (especially since space in the parks and resorts is finite) to go for the big bucks, but now that things aren't so hot, the flaws with that plan are becoming clear.

Bingo.  I think the new management in TDB knows this but there is still some remnants of the Old Guard left in place...

You didn't imply that 9/11 was Disney's fault.  I was just distinguishing your comparison on that basis.

Before 9/11 there were executives at TDLBV that believed nothing could disrupt the flow of guests coming to WDW.  They were wrong.

[mPower]

It's about balance. Each person, when they come into contact with the Disney brand, either have a preconceived notion of what their experience will mean, or they formulate their own upon arrival.

We’re talking about lending more weight to the minority (DVC, AP, Die Hard Fan Boys, etc) rather then the majority of guests (first time, casual) who really just want a quality experience, and wouldn’t know ISW from ISWNM, and more importantly, don’t care! Do we generally allow the minority to rule?

To illustrate the absurd with the absurd, Picture 2009 MK with 1971 attractions. No updates, nothing but maintenance. How much fun would it be to see PoC and JC AAs move with glacial speed because they never installed compliance? How COOL would the park be without BTM and SM? What would we think of the plush character costumes, or of an electrical light parade that was dull compared to our own Christmas lights? Or better yet, how about some 70’s era greasy hamburgers and fries only?

Yumm...give me some seconds of that staleness!

‘Our parks’ are not museums. They are living breathing things and have to change and evolve in order to give us new attractions.

Are we seriously wasting time complaining about what we really want the parks to do; keep it fresh and entertaining for generations to come?

[Grumpwurst]

Do we generally allow the minority to rule?

Ultimately, The Disney Theme Parks are about customer service.  When I worked in the customer service field (fine dining), it was the people who came often that got the most respect.  Didn't mean they always got what they wanted but they would definitely have the ability to bump someone off a reservation who is an unknown.

We also frequent a restaurant where management often comps portions of our meal because we eat there every week.

I think many of the repeat visitors don't want a museum, they just don't want their product to be diluted or devalued in an effort to lure one time visitors

[WDWFigment]

Ultimately, The Disney Theme Parks are about customer service.  When I worked in the customer service field (fine dining), it was the people who came often that got the most respect.  Didn't mean they always got what they wanted but they would definitely have the ability to bump someone off a reservation who is an unknown.

We also frequent a restaurant where management often comps portions of our meal because we eat there every week.

I think many of the repeat visitors don't want a museum, they just don't want their product to be diluted or devalued in an effort to lure one time visitors

Well said.

[gary]

gary's .02, probably half of our trips have been for 2 special times of the year, october for food and wine, with certain attendance at not so scary
and the first or 2nd week of december, for mf with certain attendance at very merry xmas
and a string of uninterrupted dec trips dating back to radp 4 in 1999, that's 10 years of wdw xmas, and yes we have seen what karen and i both perceive as a decline in the special experience wdw in christmas decoration means to us
starting in 2001, yes i realize attendance was off, but that was a fear of travel that anyone with half a brain realized would eventually reduce, what we saw happening was a noticeable decline in maintenance, ie: hedges not trimmed, fallen leaves not raked up,followed by less garland, less lights, and within 3 years it was pretty noticeable how much less xmas decorations were out, particularly at the resorts, the last 3 years it appears to be ever so slowly returning to past glory, and then the ultimate indignity, no christmas country bears. if they try to justify it by saying no extra people were going into the attraction, well how would you get any extra walk ins?, by cutting out the one special show that many loved and miss??
i just fear that one by one what the bean counters view as extra's, not needed, will go the way of the bears, this year lights of winter, 2 years down the road, they start whittling away at osborne lights, until one day al that's left is the manger in a corner and a couple of overhead light figures that don't even blink to the nonexistent music, after that one by one the caroling groups dissapear, then the narration of candelight becomes a recorded narator, followed by no voices of liberty, then the massed choirs becomes a handful of employees joined by whover wanted to wander over from the local church, accompanied by a recorded orchestra
where oh where will the brutality end,

[Scottwdw]

Another confirmation: http://www.wdwmagic.com/Attractions/Lights-of-Winter/News/11Nov2009-Lights-of-Winter-confirmed-as-cancelled.htm

There goes my monorail going through the Lights of Winter at dusk shot I was planning on.